Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome to the Multiply your Success podcast, where each week, we help growth-minded entrepreneurs and franchise leaders take the next step in their expansion journey.

Speaker 1: 0:10

I'm your host, tom Dufour, ceo of Big Sky Franchise Team, and as we open today, I'm wondering if you have thought about expanding your company internationally, and whether that's internationally across an ocean or maybe just across a border that's right next to you. Well, our guest today is Kenan Fisher, and he shares with us how he has successfully expanded his franchise system into new international markets. Now Kenan is a visionary leader and the driving force behind Tommy Gunn's original barbershop, and he's transformed his father's family-run business into a global franchise powerhouse. He's taken over from Ken Fisher, who founded the company in 1988. Keenan has elevated the brand to over 88 locations across Canada and grown to more than 100 total locations worldwide, including expansions into the US, australia and New Zealand. A testament to his dedication, keenan recently celebrated a monumental milestone of 10 million haircuts since the brand's inception. You're going to love this interview, so let's go ahead and jump right into it, thanks a lot, tom.

Speaker 2: 1:18

It's Keenan Fisher. I'm the managing partner at Tommy Gunn's Original Barbershop. We're a barbershop franchise chain that originated in Canada with over 100 locations across Canada, australia, new Zealand and now into the US, which we're very excited about.

Speaker 1: 1:34

Wonderful Well, thank you so much for being here. I always enjoy having franchisors on to share part of their journey and their growth story, so let's just start there. It's a nice, easy place to start. Talk about a little bit of the history of Tommy Guns and what led you to even franchise it.

Speaker 2: 1:51

Yeah, well, I'm a bit of a unique case. I'm a second generation franchisor, and second generation within the hair and beauty space. So you know, I grew up in hair salons. My parents had a hair salon franchise chain all across Canada and that's where I got two things I kind of cut my teeth and learned the ropes that are around the business and, as well, as you know, grew a passion for the business. So when I say passionate, I'm passionate about our space and hair, beauty and grooming and barbering and also franchising. You know franchising is such a great space to be in.

Speaker 2: 2:24

I come from a, you know, team sports, competitive background and in franchising you have all these partners that are like your teammates and you have a shared goal of getting to success. So it's an environment that very early on in my life I knew I wanted to be a part of. So in the early days when we were running the salons, we saw a real gap in the marketplace right and the original idea actually came from my dad, who's definitely one of the best idea guys in our industry here and there was a gap where there was a segment of the population that just wasn't being fulfilled and we thought that we could come up with something very unique and deliver a service and experience that wasn't out there, that guests would really love, that wasn't out there that guests would really love. And you know the approach to it was. You know, in our industry at the time, you know guys were going to, you know where they were told to go, or brought by their spouses or parents or wherever, where it was convenient, where they could get in, but it wasn't really catered to what they wanted.

Speaker 2: 3:20

And so when we did our research and knew the client base that we were targeting, they wanted a great experience, something that felt bespoke to them, but it needed to be convenient. They didn't want to plan six to eight weeks out for their cuts to get in and really the choices were if you wanted experience, you needed to pre-book six to eight weeks out. If you wanted convenience, you sacrificed an experience and we wanted them to come to an environment where they could have both. And so we created a system that was very much experience and quality focused but also had the technology in place to make it very convenient. So you know, if you knew, you found out you were on a podcast that afternoon or the next day, you could still get in and have an awesome haircut, awesome experience and, you know, come out there feeling confident and ready for whatever you're getting ready for feeling confident and ready for whatever you're getting ready for.

Speaker 1: 4:06

I love that background and I have to ask, at the very least you know now, with you growing your own franchise in the salon space and coming from a family business, what's the dynamic there? How does all of that play out?

Speaker 2: 4:17

Yeah, absolutely we're. We're a classic family business still. So my brother-in-law, corey, and I run the business, where we call ourselves managing partners. We're like co-CEOs. It's, you know, built off our family values of, you know, shared success and doing things the right way and being relentless in our pursuit of being great and leading, and so that's a big part of what we do, and so it's been great for us being able to work with family, build something special that is legacy, and go along the ride with others like our franchise partners and strategic partners, and our team has been a great experience thus far, so we're pretty excited about it.

Speaker 1: 4:58

Was franchising always on your mind as the direction you wanted to take the business? Was it something you kind of grew into? How did that all work out?

Speaker 2: 5:06

Yeah, it was in mind from day one because of our background in franchising. You know which. With the original concept it was one of those things where we, you know there was a great business model. And then how do we grow it? Well, franchising is a great growth model and the business model came first In this case because we had the experience and the business model came first In this case because we had the experience. We had that in mind from day one. So building process, building a design, building a brand that is trainable, scalable, will work in multiple markets. We had the advantage that we had that mindset from the beginning. So I think that helped us kind of get a jump out quicker than if we did it the other way. But our unique background kind of, I think, gave us a bit of an advantage in our strategy from day one.

Speaker 1: 5:50

As your franchise system has been growing. You've been expanding, really in locations around the world and now into the United States and expanding there. What have you learned over that time period, as some of the things that you've kind of figured out about growing your franchise system? Certainly you had a franchise background in the past, so it wasn't foreign. Were there new things this go around that maybe came out or that you discovered?

Speaker 2: 6:14

Yeah, absolutely so. Our previous experience all happened in Canada. Well, pretty well all happened in Canada. And in this new experience where we wanted to go through international growth, there's definitely a learning curve there, right? So you go into a new country, you've got different legislation around franchising and business in general, you've got labor laws, labor standards, and then you have cultural differences, right. You go to Canada, to Australia, to New Zealand, to the US. There's differences in all those countries. There's differences in all those countries.

Speaker 2: 6:44

And so I guess, in identifying countries where we thought we would work was finding the similarities within the marketplace and starting there. And then, once we believed that our concept would fit, it was finding out what's the nuance that's different. So 80 to 90 percent of what we do resonates in all those countries, but that 10 to 20% was critical for us to figure out, and figure out quickly to ensure success. So that that takes a lot of work, right? It's not. You know.

Speaker 2: 7:10

Especially at least our experience in our space is if you're going in those, you have to do the work upfront to figure out what those are early and then build traction off of that. So that was probably our biggest learning going in, you know, and we we've had great partners along the way that have helped that and we have a great network within our industry globally. That's really helped us in accelerating our learning there. So we were never afraid to lean into others and make the calls and do the work to figure it out. But that was the biggest learning in our new experience of going global, versus our past experience, which was all domestic.

Speaker 1: 7:44

We work primarily with entrepreneurs, help them franchise their business or companies similar to yours that expand outside of the US or into other markets and go that direction, and I think what you're talking about is a piece that oftentimes I see in franchisors and entrepreneurs that it's overlooked. Some of those nuanced differences that 10 to 20 percent you're talking about there, nuanced differences that 10 to 20% you're talking about there, but it really seems like that 10 to 20% is the difference between succeeding and not in some of these foreign markets or new markets that you're entering into. How did you go about figuring some of this out? What are some of the things that you did?

Speaker 2: 8:21

Yeah, so first we need to understand what are the core things that determine our success and then that's where we figure out where the differences are on those items. First, so you know, in our business we're labor intensive, we're a service business, right? So you really need to understand the labor market and across all those markets, the labor market varies greatly. And then, if you look at the US as a whole, licensing and labor market can vary state to state and region to region. So you need to have an in-depth understanding of that and have a great strategy around how to manage and deal with that and procure talent, because talent's incredibly important. Other things on the back end is access to capital. So the different funding programs in all these countries are very different. The banking systems are different, what government programs are different. So really making sure you have the right finance and access to capital, partners, understanding those programs, making sure that you're validating candidates in the right way so that they'll be approved for the programs that are available. So those are some examples on the kind of back end or the internal side of the business. And then it's understanding you know what, what exactly there is from a consumer perspective as well, right? So are there any traits within the consumers that are different? Are there certain products that resonate in different markets that don't in others? Are there certain service standards that are more critical? So, if you're in a warm climate, are cold towels more important than hot towels Simple things like that that seem simple but make a big difference in the end of it.

Speaker 2: 9:44

Right, and those are the details that we need to hammer out as the franchisor and working with our franchise partners to make sure that we get that dialed in so that they're delivering an exceptional service and experience and having high retention of their guests and setting up all their barbers for success. So those are some of the items, but we start with our core pillars. So, of our five core pillars, where are those impacted? And then we get into the details from there.

Speaker 1: 10:10

I'd love for you to talk about. When you launched into a new market, a new country the United States, New Zealand, Australia, these new markets, as you go into it and you launch and you do your homework ahead of time. And yet I'm certain there were still new things that come up once franchisees launch and things pop up that oh wow, we didn't know about that, or you learned something, or how did you handle that? How are you addressing that and supporting your franchisees through these new discoveries?

Speaker 2: 10:40

Yeah, I think there's two components to that, right. So one, we're a new brand to that market. So, whereas if we go to a market where we have brand equity, it's a lot easier to cut through and tell our story because people have an idea already, right? So when you're going there, you have to go back to your kind of roots and remember when you were first telling the story in the existing market, because your marketing is going to be a lot different how you cut through, how you engage and connect with that community. So that's kind of like going backwards to go forward in terms of strategy. So that's the first component. And the second component is having the same hands-on approach that you did early on in your initial market, so we're not having to make those same adjustments.

Speaker 2: 11:18

Whereas we're entering in new markets, we have a larger team that's involved in that opening and launch. We're investing a lot heavier in it from a people perspective and we're actually getting in there with our franchise partners, boots on the ground to to see it in in real time. So we're we're taking a proactive approach approach to it versus a reactive and waiting. You know, the other option is you get open, wait and and see, hope it sticks and if it doesn't, then you go there, whereas we'll be boots on the ground with the openings actually in person, seeing how the engagements happen. And that goes back to the reacting quickly. So if there are adjustments we need to make, we want to make them quickly because we're establishing brand reputation at that time, so we want to get out in front of it.

Speaker 1: 12:10

As companies in franchising. And it makes me think of when you mentioned you and your brother and being family run and family owned and operated here. It just prompts me to be curious. Just to ask, as you start thinking about a future exit, is it something you're thinking of with the amount of venture capital and private equity in franchising? Or are you guys saying, well, we like this family run thing? Where do you guys fall on that?

Speaker 2: 12:33

I would say we love the family run program. We're really enjoying it and we're young. Whether we look at it or not, we are young, so we got lots of runway ahead for us. We really feel like we're just getting started as well. We're over a hundred locations, but the ceiling's high. We're not in any level of planning discussions on terms of exits at this stage. I mean, the idea of a legacy family business to me sounds very, very appealing and great and I think that would just be an amazing story and scenario for us. So we'll see what the future holds, but as of right now, we're loving the family business. It's great to build it together, build a legacy. It all matters to us and the business becomes an extension of your family in some ways right. So it's something that we cherish closely, for sure.

Speaker 1: 13:19

I thought that might be your response, just based on working with your brother and family. There's just something fun and special about that and having, like you said, a longer horizon in front of you certainly is appealing. For sure. Knowing what you know now because this would then be your third time through franchising what advice might you give to a new franchisor, someone that's trying to kind of get things going?

Speaker 2: 13:43

If you're a new franchisor, it also means you're entrepreneurial and you have an entrepreneurial spirit. If you're a new franchisor, it also means you're entrepreneurial and you have an entrepreneurial spirit. So I think the key thing is, as an entrepreneur, is to stay focused on what's most important and not get too wide or too distractive. Keep that narrow focus, focus on compounded results, and that's how you'll be able to scale up quicker. I think the trap for entrepreneurs is we're always excited about so many things, so we want to do too much and get too wide, and that, to me, is is a lesson we're always learning to make sure that we're keeping that narrow focus and focusing on the most important things all the time.

Speaker 2: 14:20

And I'd say the other thing, for for any franchisor, especially in the early days, where you know every deal matters so much is still being prudent in your process. Get the right operators, get the right locations, spend the right amount of time to make sure your markets are working. You know, you see so many franchisors that where they fail as they go too fast with the wrong people or just open locations to get them open, and that's a really hard thing to dig yourself out of. So we, we didn't do that. We were proven in it because we had great, you know, people around us and experience and good mentors that you know helped advise us to to keep on track with that and I'm very happy we did and that's why we have, you know, basically no attrition in our, in our business.

Speaker 1: 15:02

That's great advice and you know, actually, as you're describing that, I'm reading the sign behind you, so someone may not see the video of this, but over your shoulder it says what you want now versus what you want most.

Speaker 2: 15:14

So talk about that a little bit, my kids all the time I say you either pay now or pay later, but you're going to pay. So what do you want to do? Do you want to put in the work now for what you where you want to be or you know, not be where you want to be later and pay for it? I came into my office one day and my daughter was on a stepstool with some markers and she actually wrote that on there. So which was? Which was great, and I'm like, ah ago, and it stuck.

Speaker 2: 15:41

But but I'm a big believer in that right. Like nothing's built in a day, like there's there's very few overnight successes and it's built with consistency and doing things the right way and surrounding yourself with great people and putting in the work. Uh, there's very few successful entrepreneurs that I know that say, oh yeah, I was easy all the time and I never had sacrifice and all those things. So you know it's embracing that.

Speaker 2: 16:09

You know I was talking to a friend of mine who's also in business and we were talking about the early days where you're really grinding Right and it feels like a grind. I feel like, you know, we're still grinding most of the time now too, because we love it so much. But that's some of the most fun you have too. But that's some of the most fun you have too. And you talk to entrepreneurs. Their best stories are when they were just like all in 24-7, just doing everything they can to barely make it work. So having you know, embracing that and focusing on like what your actual end goal is and view it as a positive, I think is a great approach to business.

Speaker 1: 16:42

What great impact, by the way, on your kids, that your daughter has heard that phrase so many times that she wrote it up on the wall. That's a great story, great story. Well, kenan, what's the best way? If someone's interested in learning more about your business or maybe they're interested in your franchise or they know someone that might be a good fit for your franchise how can they learn more?

Speaker 2: 17:05

Absolutely Just TommyGunscom. On our website we have a franchise section where we've got a ton of information and then there's either a form they can fill out there or they can just email us at info at TommyGunscom or franchise at TommyGunscom. And we'd love to connect. Like I said, we're real hands on. We get in touch real quick and want to actually. You know, usually when people are interested they want to talk to real people. So you know, one of us get in touch very quickly and we we, we love to meet new people, see if it's the right fit. You know everyone that we connect with our. Our goal is to make sure that the, the validation process and who we're actually awarding to we're going to be able to have a positive impact on their business life and personal life. So our kind of motto is is whoever works with us should be better off after than before.

Speaker 1: 17:55

We'd love to connect and see if that fit. Is there to make that a reality? Fantastic, and we'll make sure we link that in the show notes as well, so people can just click when they listen. They can click right on this on their phone or however they're listening. Well, kenan, this is a great time of the show. We make a transition and we ask every guest the same four questions before they go, and the first question we ask is have you had a miss or two on your journey and something you learned from it?

Speaker 2: 18:15

Yeah, absolutely so. The biggest misses I had are when we went too wide so I kind of referenced this earlier, but when we went too wide and gotten strayed from our core business. Not that we didn't stop doing our core business, but we widened our scope and to me that was the slower of productivity right. You get too wide, you do a lot of things a 7 out of 10 versus a few things a 10 out of 10. And the quicker we narrowed that up, the better and more productive we were. So my biggest misses along the way are if we get too excited about the things on the fringe and not making sure that we're focused on the core. That, to me, is paramount and something that I talk to our team and myself about on a regular basis.

Speaker 1: 19:02

Let's take a look at a make or win, a highlight. You've certainly shared some along the way. Are there others you'd like to share with us?

Speaker 2: 19:09

Yeah, a big win for us is successfully expanding internationally, and so we started into Australia and we had a unique structure there where it was a master franchise where we were partners in with the master operator. We grew that up operator. We grew that up. We had a multi-unit operator that we actually ended up buying in and becoming the full master franchise operator and is growing that market now and I'm extremely proud of that. I mean growing internationally, over 10,000 miles away.

Speaker 2: 19:40

You know that's not something that's typical or easy to do and we've really created an amazing foothold there. In fact, our average unit volume is higher in Australia than it is in Canada. Even so, we have an amazing opportunity there and the family, the couple, luke and Grace, who are master franchise owners out there incredible people. So you get new great partners in the business. So that's something I'm very proud of and we were luckily recognized for it this past year at the Global Franchise Awards. We were awarded top franchise in the hair and beauty category, which was a very cool moment for us. You know we're competitive and driven, so we're typically always pushing ahead, so you get reflective at those moments and that was really awesome and great for our team and all of our franchise partners and everyone involved who made it all happen.

Speaker 1: 20:28

Oh, excellent. The next question we ask is have you used a multiplier to multiply yourself personally, professionally, or organizations you've been involved with?

Speaker 2: 20:39

Yeah, I think the most important thing for me was never being the limitation of the business. Right, I don't have to be the best at everything, I don't have to have every answer. Be the smartest guy in the limitation of the business, right, I don't have to be the best at everything, I don't have to know how to have every answer. Be the smartest guy in the room, I'll probably have the most passion or in line with the most passion in all the rooms. But learning that early is kind of one of my secret weapons, I believe. So I surround myself with incredibly talented and smart people who can meet my motivation but have great skill sets. I never stopped learning. I've been peer to peer business groups. I go to workshops. I do anything I can to learn. At conferences. I seek out mentors If there's, you know, guys running franchise systems and it can be other categories, but they're where I want to be.

Speaker 2: 21:21

I try and get their ear and I think that's been. You know, if I'm to look at any multiplier, that's, you know, helped us grow and be successful, helped us avoid pitfalls and mistakes. You know key learnings, you know that's really it. And I can pick out so many moments from those people and groups that just like, really steered us in the right path and steered me personally, so that, to me, has been the best. Multiplier is just always learning and and and not being afraid to bring in, you know, brilliant people that can can take you to the next level right Cause leading a business isn't dragging everyone along right. That's not. That's not where I want to be. I want to be surrounded by people that that you know, keep plowing us forward and and and upward and and. So that's that's really our approach and that's been. Our biggest multipliers is the people and who we surround ourselves with.

Speaker 1: 22:12

Well, and Kenan, the final question we ask every guest is what does success mean to you?

Speaker 2: 22:16

So we have a term that we talk about in our office called infinity business, and our goal is to get to what we call infinity business, and what that means is a perpetually successful business, both personally and financially, for all stakeholders. So it's not just about the shareholders. We focus on every stakeholder, from our guests to our barbers, guest services managers, the franchise partners, our vendors, which we call our strategic partners. So that's really what we're working towards as a business is creating what we call infinity business, where all stakeholders are thriving in our environment.

Speaker 1: 22:50

I love that. Well, and Kenan, as we bring this to a close, is there anything you were hoping to share or get across that you haven't had a chance to yet?

Speaker 2: 22:59

Yeah, I think the main thing is for us is we're really excited to grow. The US has been a big focus for us and we're launching. We're in Arizona now we're launching in Utah. That, to us, is kind of the next phase of growth and partnerships and we're excited about that journey and want to share it with as many as we can along the way interview and let's go ahead and jump into today's three key takeaways.

Speaker 1: 23:29

So takeaway number one is when he talked about determining what his key drivers are for success at his company and for them they identified talent was very important. So when he expanded internationally, he had to find and figure out ways to help his franchisees find talent. Then he said the second piece was the back end and access to capital and funding for those franchisees in other countries. And number three he looked at it from the consumer perspective. He said what else might the consumer like or that might be different. He said what are traits of the consumers that are different? He described, for example, in a warm climate, a cold towel is more important than a warm towel and what other services might need to be adjusted. I loved how he gave that level of detail and I think that's a great application for you as you consider for your own business in international expansion.

Speaker 1: 24:19

Takeaway number two is when he talked about opening in an established market versus a new market, and in an established market he said less people are required. It's a little more to the point and easier to get up and going. However, in a new market meaning where there are no franchisees and they're now expanding into that area. It requires an all hands on deck, and it sounds like he and his leadership team attend and give extra time and resources. Takeaway number three is when he gave the advice to franchisors and new franchisors, and the advice he gave was to stay focused on what matters, Keep your attention narrow, be prudent in selecting your franchisees and find great mentors to help along the way. I thought that was just some great advice that he provided there, and now it's time for today's win-win.

Speaker 1: 25:15

So today's win-win is a leadership lesson, really that he shared, that he has been teaching his children and that his daughter had made the sign for him, and he taught his kids, and has been teaching his kids, that you either pay now or you pay later. You pay now or you pay later, and that's just such a truth in life and it's just something that comes up over and over and over again. So you either pay now or you pay later, and I thought that was a great way to look at it and I think that's a great way to end the episode. So that's the episode today. Folks, Please make sure you subscribe to the podcast and give us a review, and remember if you or anyone you know might be ready to franchise their business or take their franchise company to the next level. Please connect with us at BigSkyFranchiseTeamcom, where we can schedule a free consultation to learn more about you and your business and how we might be able to serve you. Thanks for tuning in and we look forward to having you back next week.