Sponsor Message From Zoho

Tom DuFore 0:00

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Welcome And Guest Introduction

Tom DuFore 1:15

to the Multiply Your Success podcast, where each week we help growth-minded entrepreneurs and franchise leaders take the next step in their expansion journey. I'm your host, Tom Dufour, CEO of Big Sky franchise team. And as we open today, I'm wondering if you know what is going through the minds of your prospective franchise buyers, or what's going through the minds of maybe that next key employee you're hiring. Well, our guest today is John Tarnoff, and he shares with us some of what might be going on. Now, John is an executive and career transition coach, TEDx speaker, and author of the best-selling Boomer Reinvention. After 35 years as a film producer, a studio executive, and tech entrepreneur, he reinvented himself at 50 with a master's in counseling psychology. His three elements career builder framework helps mid-career professionals define their niche value, build referral communities, and use thought leadership to attract opportunities. You're gonna love this interview. So let's go ahead and jump right into it.

John Tarnoff 2:16

Tom, it's great to be here. I'm John Tarnoff. I am an executive and career transition coach and community leader based in Los Angeles. And I work with mid-career professionals who are contemplating their next act.

Tom DuFore 2:28

I think your topic is interesting because our worlds really have this collision course. Very often, these folks that may be in contact with you or these people that are career transition, mid-career, midlife career, oftentimes end up finding themselves exploring franchise ownership. So, and for probably much of the same reasons. And so, one of the things, just out of curiosity and what you've seen, I'm sure there are some nuggets or wisdom you can share, especially for maybe that franchise or that's recruiting these folks into their franchise system. It's no different than maybe an employer recruiting a mid-career person in.

John Tarnoff 3:09

This is really a mindset

Midlife Reassessment As Opportunity

John Tarnoff 3:11

question. And this is kind of a natural thing that happens for people in midlife, mid-career. You start to kind of question a lot of the assumptions that you made getting into your career. So when you're in your 20s, you're kind of getting in, trying to find your footing in your 30s, you've kind of got the rhythm going. In your 40s, you're really nailing it, you're really making an impact. But as you get out of your 40s, into your 50s, you start to kind of look at the longer horizon and you think, well, where is this going? What's this purpose? I've achieved a lot, you know, on the outside of work, you've probably achieved a certain amount of hopefully financial stability, relationship, family. A lot of these milestones that we grow up with, you're starting to check those boxes. And now you're thinking, what's next? And so it is very typical psychologically for people to have what we have kind of come into knowing as this cliche of the midlife crisis. It's not so much, I think, a crisis. It's really an opportunity for us to look at life differently. And we we can't look backwards, right? We have to look forwards to the opportunity that is presenting itself. So it's a kind of a great time to reevaluate who you are, why you do what you do, and where you want to take it. This is kind of a mission statement approach, which I encourage everyone to do at this stage. And that may include branching out, going off into a more entrepreneurial venture, franchises, and I've worked with a lot of people who have gone through this transition, franchises can be a great opportunity because for someone who is coming out of an organization as an executive, this really has kind of the best of both worlds in that you have an organization behind you, but as the franchisee, you actually have a lot more control over your domain. The corporation, and kind of thinking about what's going on in the corporate world today, there is potentially a lot more corporate support for you as a professional in a franchise guise than there was for you as a corporate executive working under those constraints and the unpredictability of working in a corporation, particularly today.

Why Franchising Appeals To Executives

Tom DuFore 5:25

That's very well said. And it leads me to really our pre-show conversation, this idea of becoming a consultant. I'd

Think Like A Consultant Always

Tom DuFore 5:33

like for you to expand on that a little bit or share that idea and concept because I think that it applies whether this person is becoming a franchisee, they're going out on their own, they're going to work for someone else. I think this was a really compelling idea.

John Tarnoff 5:48

Right. Thank you. So, yeah, so we did talk about this. This is this is something which I talk about a lot with everybody. And it it gets back to this idea of mindset, right? And in today's world, I maintain that you should always present yourself and think of yourself as a consultant delivering value to a client, never think of yourself as an employee working under the direction of a manager or a supervisor. Because this is a time in the workforce where your productivity is at a premium. And if you are continuing to uh assume the responsibilities of an entry-level or an early career executive where you're still learning the ropes, that's not going to serve you well in your mid to late career where more is expected of you, right? You're you're supposed to be worth more, you got all this experience. What are you gonna, what have you got to show for it, right? What are you going to deliver on that experience? So it's very important for everyone to kind of narrow down their sense of who they are as a professional.

Escaping The Generalist Trap

John Tarnoff 7:00

And one of the kind of corollary problems here is that when you build up so much experience, many different jobs, many different sets of responsibilities, you present yourself as a generalist because you've done all this stuff and you think, well, this is good. I've got this portfolio of skills and experiences. People should recognize my value based on all of this. The irony is that's confusing to employers. They see this kind of great, you know, range of this rainbow of opportunity, and they go, uh, you know, they're they're a you know, jack of all trades, master of none. I don't know what to pick here. I don't know what their strengths are and their weaknesses are. Pass. I'm looking, I'm looking for a specialist. So again, this is why the consulting mindset is so important. You've got to figure out what it is that you love to do, that you do well. You've got to find your product market fit. How does this apply to the marketplace? You've got to evaluate what the revenue potential is there. So interestingly, I think this is a great segue into the franchise opportunity because, and I'm sure this is a lot of the work that you do with your clients on both sides. You're a matchmaker, right? You're trying to find the best fit between the franchise or and the franchisee. And so if you are working with a franchisee, you want that person, you want to feel confident that that person has chosen the right business to get into, right? And you want to be able to introduce them to the franchisor with the confidence that this is the right fit. So again, it starts with that mindset of having that consultant mindset, which narrows down your target, which makes you a much better candidate and a much easier fit for the right franchisor.

Tom DuFore 8:52

I'm always looking from the perspective of the franchise or working with that entrepreneur, help them franchise. Now they're a franchisor. So I think now it's very common, these mid-level executives or mid-career transitioners are coming through that are now exploring their franchise opportunity. So I think it's a valuable exercise to the franchise or for them to actually maybe help these candidates come through, help them discover and work through this process together with them that will help the candidate identify am I the right fit? And the franchise or to see if they're the right fit. So, what are some things that might make sense to start asking or practices or processes or procedures, things that people might be able to work someone through to help help sort that out?

Ikigai Questions To Clarify Fit

Tom DuFore 9:40

Right. Great question.

John Tarnoff 9:41

And this is this interestingly, it kind of dovetails directly to the work that I do with people at the beginning of a coaching engagement. And there are two exercises that I use to help answer this question that you're asking. One of them is this exercise, which is based on the Japanese concept of the Ikigai, which is life's purpose. And there are these four questions that you that you ask. What do you love to do? What do you do well? What does your world need? And what can you get paid for? So at the intersection of these four questions is the beginning of the answer to your question about how to identify the strengths, the weaknesses, the preferences, the affinities that that candidate is going to have. And I think it's a it's a it's a it's either a conversation, it could be an assessment, any number of ways of of delivering this questionnaire or kind of teasing out these answers. It's really helpful to start there. The other side of this is the question of limiting beliefs. And

Clearing Limiting Beliefs From The Past

John Tarnoff 10:45

this is something which, again, goes along with the mid-career stage that we're in, the mid-life stage, where, you know, you've you've worked for a long time, you've had a lot of experiences, you've had some ups, you've had some downs. We tend to shy away from the experiences that didn't go so well, right? The mistakes we made, the relationships that we blew, the bad deeds that were done to us. And just as people, we tend to kind of pull away and try to kind of go, I don't want to do that anymore. I don't want to be in that situation anymore. The problem is that we bring those wounds, if you will, into every transaction, interaction, meeting, conversation on some level. And people may not identify this specifically, but they're going to know that something's up. And typically, I talk about this for people in job interviews, right? You always want to be able to go into a job interview with a clear conscience and a very kind of reconciled attitude about your past. So that when they ask you those tough questions about, so what happened to this company? Did you quit or did they let you go? You want to be able to say very forthrightly, well, I got fired. And here's why, and here's what happened, and most importantly, here's what I learned. So, on the one hand, you want to use this Ikigai process to kind of identify your ideal, your aspiration, you know, your product market fit. But on the reframing side, you want to be able to kind of clear up all of the messy aspects of your background so that you are confident and clear about who you are, where you want to go, and you're building trust in the person that you're working with, the franchise or that you are someone who is self-aware, who has integrity, who's not afraid to confront the tough stuff and have the tough conversations. Because, you know, when the chips are down, that's where things really count. If things are going well, you know, everyone's happy, no one's really challenged. But if you have a bad couple of quarters, well, you know, how are you going to respond to that? Right. That's part of the reason why you want to be very clear about both sides of this equation, the up and the down.

Tom DuFore 13:17

That resonates. And I think for the person as well as that franchise or that's bringing somebody in, and even for the franchise or that's now starts recruiting leadership and staff for the franchise system, as the franchise starts to grow. I literally had this conversation yesterday with a client that his franchise system is really starting to take off. And he said, Tom, I think we need to start recruiting a CEO or a president to come in and really take this thing to the next level. So I think that that's really, really good advice. And so for that franchise or that's maybe saying, okay, John, I need to recruit people, you know, for our growing franchise system leadership, vice presidents, presidents, senior in franchise, and we call them franchise business coaches or if they're FBCs, where they're these people that are consulting or coaching the franchisees to help them along the way. You know, what are some things that maybe you advise your clients on that might be some uh strategies or tips for the employer to use in their decision or as they start to discern which candidate might be the best fit for them?

Prototype The Role To Test Fit

John Tarnoff 14:27

The one thing which I think might be helpful here is this concept of prototyping. This is something that that I'm very familiar with having come out of an industry that was very much reliant on prototyping, and that is the film and entertainment industry. So making a film, TV show, animated movie, whatever, it's all about prototyping, particularly today, where productions are so expensive. You need to kind of create little mini cheap versions of what it is that you're trying to do in order to be understand, be able to understand whether it's working or not. So when you're interviewing, reviewing a candidate, you may want to put them into a kind of a prototype situation, kind of give them a what if. You may want to actually give them some kind of a trial experience where, you know, it's not where, you know, you've got a clipboard and you're kind of looking down your nose and checking off whether they're performing correctly or not. It's much more, I think, holistic than that. You want to see whether there's a good fit. They want to know whether you're the right person for them, the right organization for them. So it really is an opportunity for both parties to get to know one another better in a business context that is structured, time delineated, where each side has a chance to really get into a dialogue about the experience. There's no right or wrong. It's about is the fit working? And it's a discovery process on both sides. I'm not sure, you know, it might be operational, it might be statistical and analytical. These projects can vary depending on what the role is, the company, et cetera. But it may be a good idea to try something out like this. But I want to put a caution in here because one of the abuses that corporations are doing across the workforce in general are these hoops that they're making candidates jump through, where they're asking them to produce reports. And part of the evaluation of their candidacy hinges on a successful report. This is bad. This is a one-way exploitive move on the company's part, often to steal ideas from potential candidates that they have no intention of hiring. I'm not talking about that at all. I'm not talking about deliverables. I'm not talking about, you know, this kind of one-way evaluation. I'm talking about a cooperative experience, a cooperative prototype where you're getting a chance to see how this person works in your team. They're getting a chance to see how you work as an organization.

Pay For Trial Work Fairly

Tom DuFore 17:08

Well, I think that's well said. I agree with you, these pre-employment projects or what have you that get put together. I understand the value and I think it's great. But I also think, back to your consultant's point, that the person who's producing it ought to be paid for it. So whether they get hired or not, they should be paid for their time and compensated. And I know in other companies I've owned over the years, when I would be recruiting employees for a very specific job function or job duty, I would go through and I would say, look, I need you to come work here. I'm going to pay you for your time. Here's what we pay you, but we want to see you in action. And it's going to be two days or three days, and this is what you're going to get paid. And so we're not looking for a freebie. We want you to be compensated for your time because, you know, your time is valuable. And then if it works out, great. And if not, at least you've been compensated for your time. So, what's the best place for someone, if they hear this, say, boy, I'd love to learn more, or I know someone who ought to talk with you. Where can they go? How can they get in touch?

John Tarnoff 18:11

Absolutely. Thank you. So the best place really to reach me is on LinkedIn. And I think I'm the only John Tarnoff on LinkedIn as a career coach, if not the only John Tarnoff. So uh just search for me there, J-O-H-N-T-A-R-N-O-F-F, and send me a DM or send me your connection request and let's uh let's connect.

Tom DuFore 18:27

Perfect. Well,

Hard Lessons From Getting Fired

Tom DuFore 18:28

John, this is a great time in the show, and we make a transition and we ask every guest the same four questions before they go. And the first question we ask is have you had a miss or two on your journey and something you learned from it?

John Tarnoff 18:38

The lesson is never take a job when you're down and desperate. That's the wrong job. And I learned this the hard way many years ago. I was in a bad time in my career. I needed the money. I had a young family. I had just left a company and really wanted to pivot fast. I was kind of rushed by the CEO of this small company, entertainment company here in Los Angeles. Problem was, he was based out of New York. I was going to be working in the LA office. I met the guy who ran the LA office, seemed nice, whatever. What I later found out was that this guy had no intention of hiring me, had no interest in hiring me. I was kind of pushed down his throat by the CEO who went back to New York, thought everything was fine. Well, I was there for six months. I tried my best. It was like a stone wall with the uh the manager of the LA office. And one morning, Monday morning, calls me into his office. He, without looking up from his desk, he says, today's your last day. Pack up your desk. You're going to be escorted out. You'll get your check on Friday. And that was it. I had never had an experience like that in my life. I was literally perp walked out to the elevator. Everybody was completely silent and shocked. And I thought, oh, this is the worst. I'm never going to talk about this ever again. And I thought, well, it's only six months. I can kind of hide this on my resume. Here's the problem that humiliation gnawed at me for years. And I was, and back to this question that I talked about before about being able to reconcile your past, I was bringing that defensiveness into every meeting, every interview. And I finally thought, I got to do something about this. I've got to forgive this guy for whatever reason he did what he did. It was the wrong casting, the wrong timing. I don't think it was personal. And I had to forgive myself for kind of being so desperate. And because I judged myself first, I beat myself up about this. Why'd you take that job? And you just have to move on, right? You just have to kind of love yourself, joke about this, not take it seriously, move on, realize that there's a lesson here, and use it and talk about it. So here we are talking about it.

Tom DuFore 20:56

I'm sure a lot of folks have found themselves in somewhat of a similar situation. Exactly. That's definitely relatable. I definitely relate to you there. And well, let's talk about a make that you've had along the way.

John Tarnoff 21:09

Yes, yes. So good. So there have been a few. I think that, you know, I kind of dine out on the fact that in my entertainment career, I was fired from 39% of my jobs. So it's a kind of a high firing rate. But the the key there, particularly in entertainment, is how do you how do you bounce back, right? What are how what are the resiliency skills that you learn? And I had a situation, another similar kind of a situation, firing situation, but that was a save. So I was working for this company. We were doing very well, but we we got sold, right? The and I was working, it was very basically the the the managing director. This was an Australian company based in Los Angeles, managing director and I, and a couple of staff people, we were working on film productions, and we were trying to flip the company, which we did successfully. The acquiring company came in and they said, We don't see the value of the Los Angeles office. And you know, we're sure you're a good guy, but we're gonna close the office and you're gonna be gone. So I received this message from this executive who came out from Australia and I said, I have an idea. Would you would you give me 24 hours? I've got an idea for a for a proposal that you might be interested in. And he said, sure. So I had this idea and I had some background on why this was gonna work, about how to save this little company. So I went home and I typed this thing up and gave it to him. Two days later, he calls me up. He says, We accept your proposal. I'm actually gonna move to Los Angeles from Australia. I'm gonna run the office. You're gonna be my partner and EVP. We're gonna blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so I can I saved my job, started a company, and did that for four or five years with these people. It was great. We made a lot of productions. So that was kind of pulling success out of the ashes of potential defeat.

Tom DuFore 22:53

That's an amazing story. Well, let's talk about a multiplier that you've used to multiply yourself personally, professionally, or organizations you've run.

Journaling And A Four-Word Success Test

John Tarnoff 23:02

The go-to best practice for me personally as a professional, I journal one page handwritten every morning. It's a kind of a stream of consciousness journal. It can be a planner for the day. It can be kind of a, you know, a dream download. It can be something that's been bothering me. It can be an inspiration, but it's an opportunity for me to kind of check in with myself before the day gets going so that I'm kind of settled, clear, able to kind of make a commitment to the day, set an intention. And that's a daily practice that I do without fail. And it's just been a game changer.

Tom DuFore 23:44

The final question we ask every guest is what does success mean to you?

John Tarnoff 23:48

So I knew you were gonna ask me this question, and I've been playing around recently with essentially a mantra or an affirmation. And there really are four words to that representation of what success means love, peace, health, and commitment. And that's what I try to live by.

Tom DuFore 24:14

Well, that is very succinct and summarized, and always appreciate the level of thought that you put into that. I think that's wonderful. And John, as we bring this to a close, is there anything you were hoping to share or get across that you haven't had a chance to yet?

Build A Career From The Inside Out

John Tarnoff 24:27

I would say that the number one challenge I think we have, particularly at this stage, is to take an inside out approach to our career. We're taught to kind of fit into opportunities that are out there and try to kind of squeeze ourselves and negotiate our way into opportunities. I believe we need to flip that around. And this goes back to the Ikigai question that we talked about before: that the career direction that you want is already inside you. You know on some level what you do best, what you want to do, where you want to go with this. Get in touch with that and really cultivate that value inside yourself so that you can balance out what you're seeing in the world, what you do, what you want to do, and who you are on the inside, and strive for that balance so that you're not overwhelmed with extraneous, potentially extraneous opportunities that are not right for you.

Tom DuFore 25:31

John, thank you so much for a fantastic interview. And let's go ahead and jump into today's three key takeaways. So,

Key Takeaways And Win-Win

Tom DuFore 25:38

takeaway number one is when he said, always present and think of yourself as a consultant delivering value to a client. I think that's great. It's a great perspective. Obviously, in my business, it's something I think of every day because that's what I do. However, for our franchise ours tuning in, I think it's important for you to think of yourself as a consultant delivering to your client a la your franchisee, or for the franchisee serving their customer, or for the employee working for the company. I think it's a very, very well said. Takeaway number two is when John talked about the Ike guy for helping you find purpose. It's a Japanese assessment and program, and it asks, what am I good at? What do I like to do? What does the world need? And what can I get paid for as drivers to find the middle point of all four of those points? Number three is when he talked about amiss. I thought this was great. Never take a job when you're down and desperate and it's the wrong job. And I'd say to the employer, never hire that wrong candidate when you're desperate and you know it's the wrong candidate, or sell that franchise to maybe not the best candidate. I think we can apply that to what we're doing. And as a quick sidebar side note, I love when he said this as an employer, be mindful of asking potential hires or franchisees to do a lot of work without compensating them for their time. This is not an opportunity to exploit potential employees or strategic partners or franchisees for their ideas if there's no real intent to bring them on board. I always think it's good and fair practice to compensate them for their time. And no, that's what I've done in the past for employees that I've hired or interviewed. And now it's time for today's win-win. So today's win-win is back to our first key takeaway, which is always present and think of yourself as a consultant delivering value to a client. I had the good fortune of having this concept and idea introduced to me when I was very early in my career. And I'm forever grateful for the people that introduced this idea to me. And so hopefully this is helpful to you as well as you tune into this.

Subscribe And Free Consultation Offer

Tom DuFore 27:59

And so that's the episode today, folks. Please make sure you subscribe to the podcast and give us a review. And remember, if you or anyone you know might be ready to franchise their business or take their franchise company to the next level, please connect with us at BigSkyFranchise Team.com where you can schedule your free no obligation consultation. Thanks for tuning in, and we look forward to having you back next week.